Gujarat Fluorochemicals Limited — Q4 FY24

FLUOROCHEM Q4 23/24 Earnings Conference Call https://stockanalysis.com/quote/nse/FLUOROCHEM/transcripts/305365-q4-23-24/ Published: sourced from public earnings transcript

Operator Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Gujarat Fluorochemicals Q4 FY 2024 earnings conference call, hosted by Batlivala & Karani Securities India Private Limited. As a reminder, all participants' lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Archit Joshi from Batlivala & Karani Securities India Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Archit Joshi Director, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Thank you. Good evening, everyone. On behalf of BNK Securities, I welcome you all to the Q4 FY 2024 earnings conference call of Gujarat Fluorochemicals Limited. We have with us today Dr. Bir Kapoor, CEO and Deputy Managing Director of the company, along with his team. Without further ado, I'd like to hand over the floor to Dr. Bir Kapoor for his initial remarks, post which we can take questions from participants. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thank you, Archit. Good evening, everyone, and a very warm welcome to all of you on GFL's earnings call for the quarter and full year, which ended on March 31, 2024. The company announced its Q4 and FY 2024 results at its board meeting held today on May 6, 2024. The results, along with the earnings presentations, are available on the stock exchanges and on our website. I will briefly talk about the numbers and then give you an update on the business operations and outlook. The company reported a consolidated revenue from operations for Q4 , FY 2024, of INR 1,133 crore, which is up by 14% quarter-on-quarter. Consolidated EBITDA for this quarter was INR 238 crore, which is up by 15% on quarter-on-quarter basis. The EBITDA margins for Q4 , FY 2024, were 21%, which remained flat on Q1 , quarter-on-quarter basis. The consolidated PAT for this quarter was at INR 101 crore, which is up by 26% on quarter-on-quarter basis. On a full year basis for FY 2024, the company reported a consolidated revenue from operations, of INR 4,281 crore, which is down by 25% on year-on-year basis. Consolidated EBITDA was INR 955 crore, with EBITDA margins at 22%. The consolidated PAT was at INR 435 crore, with PAT margins at 10%, while the CapEx for the year was at INR 1,050 crore. Let me briefly take you through the performance of each business segment for the quarter. The bulk chemical verticals saw improvement in volume from the previous quarter, in which our plants ran at full capacity. However, the prices of caustic soda and VCM continued to remain subdued because of increased supplies due to excess capacity creation. But we believe these, these cycles have bottomed out, and we expect to see the improvements going forward in the subsequent quarters and perhaps in this financial year. The fluorochemical segments also witnessed pickup in the volume of refrigerants. However, the prices remained sluggish. Overall, this business is expected to remain at similar levels for FY 2025. The specialty chemical volumes and prices continued to be sluggish due to dumping from overseas, which is from China, and which impacted revenue and margins. The fluoropolymer segment witnessed improvement in volumes during the quarter, and the prices remained stable. As we had guided in the previous call, we believe our core business segment, which is fluoropolymers, has already bottomed out, and we will see continuous growth in the subsequent quarters. The exit of legacy players and the improvement in the utilization levels of new fluoropolymer capacities that were set up in FY 2024, are expected to result in continued increase in sales. We have built sufficient capacity in the fluoropolymers to be able to deliver growth for the next year and perhaps the next couple of years. The green shoots that were visible have started translating into numbers now, and I would reemphasize that we expect FY 2025 to be far better as compared to FY 2024 for this segment. In our new battery chemical vertical, the details for which we had shared, alongside our quarter three results, we are progressing well, and it's going on as per our plans. We had commissioned our LiPF6 plant and now in the process of sampling and customer engagements. We expect to achieve commercial sales from this segment in the second half of FY 2025. We have a CapEx target of INR 800 crore in this vertical in FY 2025, and this segment is expected to be a major growth driver for GFL from FY 2026 onwards. Our return ratios have been affected this year on account of drop in revenues and profitability. Also, we have incurred high CapEx, particularly in meaningfully to the top line only after FY 2026 onwards. This year has been a challenging year for us. However, I can assure you that growth CapEx, despite the macro headwind, as we believed, that these headwinds are temporary, and we are very well placed to return to our growth journey very soon. As I have already communicated in the previous calls, our financial performance have been bottoming out, and we are seeing a constant signs of improvement. This should continue going forward as we'll see continuous growth over the quarters. Before I close, let me also update you on the sustainability related initiatives. In 2023, S&P Global Corporate Sustainability Assessment, GFL's ESG score at 49. I let the floor open for question and answer. Thank you. Operator Just to ask a question, press star and one on their touchtone telephone. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue is handled. The first question is from the line of Rohit Nagraj from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead. Rohit Nagraj Senior VP, Centrum Broking Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, and, congrats on good set of sequential recovery. My first question is, as you mentioned, in terms of fluorochemicals, there has been dumping from China. So what is your assessment in terms of whether there are new capacities which have come in fluorochemicals, and the same is applicable even for fluoropolymers? So just your views on the same. Thank you. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah. The dumping, I was referring primarily to the fluorochemical space. In fluoropolymers, which I have always, I had always stated, is advanced material segments and the grades that we are offering and the entire grades that we have, it is not impacted from the Chinese dumping at all. That was statement of Chinese dumping context. Rohit Nagraj Senior VP, Centrum Broking Hello? Operator Mr. Rohit, can you- Rohit Nagraj Senior VP, Centrum Broking Yeah. Yeah. Am I audible? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes, yes, you are. I can hear you. Rohit Nagraj Senior VP, Centrum Broking Yeah. Sorry. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Please. Rohit Nagraj Senior VP, Centrum Broking Sorry, sorry. My second question is, so in terms of LiPF6, where are we currently in the validation process? And when do we expect actual commercial supplies starting to international customers? And in terms of the domestic market also, if we have any kind of timelines as to when the domestic manufacturing is likely to come up and whether they'll be starting serving them immediately once those facilities are commercialized. Thank you. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We had indicated earlier in our sales of battery chemical would start trickling in from the second half of this financial year. We are still on track with that. Samples are at the testing stages, and it takes certain time because battery chemicals are dependent a lot on very extensive and rigorous testing. And a half to for the revenue stream. So this is referring primarily to LiPF6. Rohit Nagraj Senior VP, Centrum Broking Sure, sir. Thanks a lot, and all the best. Thank you. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thank you. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Yeah, good evening, sir. Thanks for taking my question. I want to start with the EV segment, following up with what we said in the previous call. We anticipated a funding there. So our balance sheet today is almost 1.8 times net debt to EBITDA, and we are expecting another INR 1,300 crore of CapEx in FY 2025, and we want to do a total CapEx of INR 6,000 crore in the EV segment. Where are we in the funding? Because I think that remains a critical element to watch, in a time where our standalone balance sheet now looks like doesn't have too much of a headroom to fund that. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals So, Sanjesh, thanks for your question. You know, if you look at our CapEx plan, so funding for the EV business, which we have shown as INR 800 crore, is will come from the external funding, and we have already initiated that process. We had said that it takes four-six months, and we have appointed investment bankers and moving ahead with that. So it's going as per plan. And in addition to that, we have also shared in our presentation, GFL CapEx, which is INR 500 crore, will continue as per plan, which is essentially on the new fluoropolymers. Does it answer your question, Sanjesh? Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities There is a small problem. I think operator need to note this, the, your voice is getting blank in between. I don't know it's only for me or for everybody. So your, your voice is getting blanked in between, so, I got the gist of it, but- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Is it better now? Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities I can hear you. We could hear you. Just that in between it goes completely blank. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals I'm sorry. My apologies for that. Let me... Let's hope it doesn't, Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Yeah. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Continue with that off. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities I got that we are looking at that INR 800 crore to come, INR 800 crore to come from external. Is it the CapEx dependent on that we get the funding or, we have any other plans for it? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Not really. I think, the business, fundamentals are very strong on EV. Sanjesh, we had indicated that. So definitely one of the options we had indicated is this funding, but other than that, we will look for alternate option if it doesn't come, but we'll continue with our plan. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities It's not dependent on that we do the funding- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals No. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities at least for FY 2025, not beyond that? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Right. Right. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Okay, and this- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Because the growth fundamental of the business is very strong, Sanjesh, and, as you know, and we have always said it, it's an upcoming business, and we'll continue with our plan. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Where are we spending this INR 800 crore? Can you, can you elaborate what is, what are the? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals It's essentially on the battery chemical and the product range that I had described. It's not really a, I cannot give you the specific names, but clearly, what we had indicated earlier was electrolyte salts, okay, and cathode active materials, and also the binders, cathode binders. These are the broad categories in which we've been investing. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities No, no, that's fairly clear. Thanks. Thanks for that elaborated answer. A related answer, question again, is that where are we in the approval cycle for the battery-grade PVDF and the semiconductor-grade PFA? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals It's the battery-grade PVDF is already, as I said, that it's already in the process. It has gone to the level of the next level of approval. It has gone to the electrochemical testings. All I can say, it's at the final stages of getting approved. Okay? And we are engaged with multiple OEMs. And as far as PFA is concerned, for semicon, I had indicated that earlier as well, that we are already supplying PFA to semiconductor applications. But we have been trying to upgrade into higher and higher segments within the same sector, and that journey is on as we speak right now. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Got it. You made a very interesting comment, sir, during your opening remarks, that you are looking at the green shoots in the fluoropolymers. Is it across the category PTFE, PFA, FKM and PVDF or, or, or it's more for the, performance solution, which is PF and FKM and less for PTFE? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals The green shoot, when I said, it was with respect to, you know, you saw several quarters, you know, our performances were subdued, particularly because of destocking. So the green shoot was in context that the destocking is phasing out, and there has been a pull in terms of demand, and those were the green shoots, sorry, green shoot that I mentioned. And that is all across. That is all across. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Okay. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals That was definitely for PTFE as well as all our new fluoropolymers. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities How has been the domestic market? It still continues to remain challenging for us? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals It remained challenging in certain segments, partly because of, you know, the imports in certain lower end grades from China, which has been a challenge. Otherwise, in higher end grades, yes... is fine, but in certain grades, particularly the granular, it has been a challenge. Yes. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Couple of bookkeeping questions. One is on the operating cost. Quarter-on-quarter appears to be gone up very sharply. I know why, why such a sharp jump in the operating cost for a company which is largely run continuous manufacturing? And number two, in the working capital, we are now at 167 days. We were targeting below 120 days. It's a huge gap, which we bridged in last two, three years, but again, built up on that, so more clarity will be helpful. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah, sure, sure. I will, I'll let Manoj answer that, but the broad answer for that is that, you know, we have added capacities, and these are in the process of getting utilized. So that's where some of the higher cost is coming up. But let me hand it over to Mr. Manoj Agrawal, who will answer it with a lot more details. Manoj Agrawal CFO, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Operating costs are particularly higher at the year-end on account of year-end closings, one Second, on account of discharge of the CSR obligations, two third, some of the CapExes which have gone on stream, some operating expenses relating to those CapExes have gone as a PNL expenses now. So these are the three essential reasons. Fourth was the Red Sea crisis has incurred increased our movement expenses. So that is on another additional impact which has happened. So these are four reasons because of which operating expenses have gone up in this quarter. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Working capital? Manoj Agrawal CFO, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Working capital is essentially, as such, absolutely it has not gone up, but because the sales were down, so it is a numerator and denominator impact, so number of days is particularly higher in those finished goods areas, because sales were down. As soon as sales picks up, it will improve. Operator Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from our—all the participants in the conference, please limit your questions. The next question is from the line of Rohan Gupta from Nuvama Institutional Equities. Please go ahead. Rohan Gupta Associate Director, Nuvama Institutional Equities Yeah. Hi, sir. Good evening, and thanks for the opportunity. Our first question is on fluoropolymer. I mean, if you refer to your last conf call, you mentioned that this year, FY 2025, you see a significant growth in fluoropolymer, which will be primarily led by volume and almost taking us to previous year profitability. Sir, do you see that that kind of pickup in fluoropolymer has already happened? And overall, for this year, we can achieve those numbers which you were guiding the last quarter, so. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes. Yes, Rohan. We absolutely see that. And, in fact, that's where, when I mentioned opening comment, green shoots, that's where we say that we expect it to give us the results that we are looking for. So fluoropolymers, not only volume, we are also, as we have added capacity with new fluoropolymers, the volume coming into new fluoropolymers, and some of them are advanced grades. So it's a combination of the two, the volume plus value-added grade, which is coming in the new fluoropolymers. Combination of the two will give us what we are looking at and give or take a quarter here and there, which I have stated last time also. But the fundamentals are strong, and we are, you know, well, within that range that we are targeting right now. Rohan Gupta Associate Director, Nuvama Institutional Equities Okay, that's good to hear, sir. Another question on the approvals, which you mentioned in a PVDF for the battery grade, those who give answer in the PFA question. Sir, is it possible for you to share some more timelines related to that, that in terms of where we are in the approval cycle? I'm sure that you are dealing with the multiple customers, but what kind of volume you think that your customers are, have started giving you indication that we can build up for the current year and for the next year? More in PVDF hybrid battery for the battery usage, and also if you can give some sense on LiPF6 and PFA. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah, Rohan. First of all, this, the approval cycle, the approval process of PVDF is a complex process. It's at multiple stages. It's because since we are dependent on customers to do these testings and respond back to us, it will be difficult for me to give any specific timelines on this. However, typically this process takes a long time. Depending upon the customer, it can take definitely over 6-8 months and sometime beyond a year as well. But from our side, I think we are into the almost the final stages, which is the electrochemical test, which is going on with our customers. Volume indications with respect to customer would be difficult for me to provide right now, but whatever we have planned, we have indicated the capacities in new fluoropolymer. I think we should be able to achieve that going forward. Rohan Gupta Associate Director, Nuvama Institutional Equities So just further on this, in the last three months, a lot of work has been done with the battery manufacturers in India under the PLI scheme, and many battery manufacturers have come forward. Are we in a process of also working with the very advanced stage with any of these domestic battery manufacturers, or still the focus is in export markets only? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals ... We are working with almost all the battery manufacturers who are coming up in India, and we are well entrenched with their plans. As and when, because those capacities have not been set up yet, and those are—some of them are starting now, and it's at very, very early stages for Indian market. We expect Indian market, particularly the battery capacities, to come from mid-2025 onwards, okay? So it's almost still some time away. However, we are engaged with almost all of them in terms of all the three product categories that we talked about, and most importantly on the electrolyte chemicals and binders. Rohan Gupta Associate Director, Nuvama Institutional Equities Thank you again for joining. Thank you. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nitin Agarwal from DAM Capital. Please go ahead. Nitin Agarwal Managing Director, DAM Capital Sir, thanks for taking my question. Sir, just to get a couple of numbers, just reiterate those numbers with you. Sir, on the fluorochemicals, did you just reconfirm your guidance that you said we'll have a flat year on fluorochemical this year? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes. In fact, fluorochemicals, going forward in FY 2024-2025, we expect to be on a similar level, maybe soften a little bit, because fluorochemicals for us includes refrigerants and specialty chemicals. In refrigerants, you know, there have been certain headwinds. You may be knowing about it, particularly the duty cut that has been there in U.S. market. Second is the phasing out of R-22 quotas over a period of time. So both actually is expected to impact that, and the fluoro-specialties to some extent is stable for us more or less, because it's a relatively small vertical for us. And the prices have been subdued because of the Chinese other imports, low-cost imports. So we expect it to remain at the similar level or slightly lower, not expecting any growth in that sector, that verticals particularly. Nitin Agarwal Managing Director, DAM Capital Got it. So, sir, then given this, you know, given this sort of, softening of outlook on this part of the business, we had earlier guided that F 25 EBITDA would be similar or higher than F 23 EBITDA. Do we still hold by this guidance, sir? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes, to some extent, because as I've answered in the previous question, that it will be driven primarily by our fluoropolymer business, and we have stated that earlier also. Because the earlier numbers, let's say, if we go back and look at FY 2023 numbers on refrigerants, there was a... In a way, it was inflated or higher because of R-125. And R-125, there was a sudden pickup in the market and the demand in U.S. because of the high duty. So, but those were, in my view, opportunistic, and those are not no more available. So the growth that we are seeing in fluoropolymers now, or the overall growth which will be led by fluoropolymers, would be much more stable, because this is led by now the newer capacities that we have already added over about, over the last one year or a year and a half. And so this is correct, that whatever we have seen going down with respect to the FY 2023 in refrigerant fluorochemicals or the bulk chemical segment, which is because of the subdued prices, would be made up by growth in fluoropolymers. Nitin Agarwal Managing Director, DAM Capital Okay. If I can ask last one, on the fluoropolymers, now, since there is so much, growth expectation which is there on the fluoropolymers, are capacities, I mean, are they- You mentioned that, you know, you, will growth, our current capacities will take care of the growth for this year. And, so at what stage do we need to meaningfully start putting up capacities to meet, our fluorochemical, fluoropolymer demand going from here on? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals See, fluoropolymers have a natural growth level of, you know, I would say anywhere from 5%-7%, depending upon, you know, fluoropolymer to fluoropolymers. Some fluoropolymers have a higher demand driven by certain sectors, which is either, for example, PVDF by EV or, or, certain other fluoropolymers which are going into semiconductor industry. So, so fluoropolymer as a, as a sector, has a very strong fundamental and a growth rate. So we have put in capacities, and as I said earlier, that we have invested a lot on the back end, which is the monomer capacities. So our current capacity addition that we have done will probably last for a year or maybe a year and a half, and then further additions, I think, will depend on the how the market unfolds, particularly in the rising segments of EV as well as semicon. So we will make investments there. Perhaps we'll keep you updated in towards the second half of this year as the market situation evolves. Nitin Agarwal Managing Director, DAM Capital ... Okay, thank you so much. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thanks. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Divya Agrawal from Frecom Family Office. Please go ahead. Divya Agrawal Company Representative, Frecom Family Office Hi there. Thank you for the opportunity. I had a couple of questions. First is the one regarding the capacity. It would be, you know, helpful if you could give us the capacities of commodity product as well as the specialty products. Grade-wise, it would be helpful for us. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Normally, I mean, we don't provide these details of the capacity for obvious reasons, along with the grades. I suggest this can be taken up offline, and whatever we can provide, but otherwise, normally we don't provide a very specific grade-wise capacities. In fact, the way we have been guiding lately is more with respect to the investment and the asset turnovers. Divya Agrawal Company Representative, Frecom Family Office Okay, sure. Understood, sir. It would be helpful, sir, if you could give us the, you know, help with, help us with the utilization levels of, maybe the commodity products or specialty fluoropolymers. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah, I suggest, Divya, that this question can be taken offline, if that's fine with you. Divya Agrawal Company Representative, Frecom Family Office Okay, sure. No problem, sir. Thanks a lot. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ketan Gandhi from Gandhi Securities. Please go ahead. Ketan Gandhi Managing Director, Gandhi Securities Yeah. Sir, you have mentioned about the legacy player being going out, and we may fill in the gap. I believe, after the exit of 3M, there is a vacuum as far as PFA is concerned, because Chemours are... I believe Chemours is unable to increase the capacity of the PFA for semiconductor grade. Is there any chance or are we looking at getting into that pool and go to the North American market as far as PFA is concerned, so that we can fill that gap, which is unable to fill by the Chemours? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes, Ketan, certainly. We are, that's one of the growth drivers for us, as we have indicated, and we are already supplying PFA to the U.S. in certain markets. And we have capability as well as capacity to fill that gap and take over from whatever the market demand is available because of this leaving or the exit of legacy players. Ketan Gandhi Managing Director, Gandhi Securities Sir, how soon it could be- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We're certainly moving in that direction, and we have, all the, you know, elements are in place. Yes, please. Ketan Gandhi Managing Director, Gandhi Securities Sir, how soon it can happen within next nine months or after the exit of the 3M? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals It has already started happening, because what happens is that the exit, the exact exit is still some time away. It's probably January 2025. So overall, what we are seeing is there's a pull from the customer side. PFA being a polymer which is a high-end polymer, qualification periods are long. So we are already seeing a pickup in demand and the interest from customers to qualify our material. So this is already happening as we speak. So we'll probably see results of that probably next few quarters. Ketan Gandhi Managing Director, Gandhi Securities Thank you very much. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals It will ramp up, and that's where, you know, when we talk about our fluoropolymer story, that we expect significant growth quarter by quarter in next three quarters or four quarters. This is one of the drivers for that is what you stated. Ketan Gandhi Managing Director, Gandhi Securities Thank you so much, sir. It's very helpful to understand. Thank you so much. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thank you so much. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Anshul Thakkar from Lalkar Securities. Please go ahead. Anshul Thakkar Company Representative, Lalkar Securities Yeah. Hi, gentlemen. Good afternoon. Very encouraging to see the sequential turnaround in the company. So the question that I want to ask is partially answered with respect to operational expenses, but just wanted some clarity on the other expenses, particularly. I mean, they seem to be elevated above the normal. So is there a one-off in this, or this is something that we can now, you know, continue to expect? Manoj Agrawal CFO, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Hi. Actually, I have explained this in the earlier question. There are a few items which have come in... this quarter. One is the certain year-end provisionings of the expenses. One is the, second is the CSR obligation discharge. And third is our, because of the Red Sea crisis, our logistic cost has gone up. So these are the few major reasons of because of increase in operating expenses. And apart from this, because we have done the capitalization of our, this, LiPF6 businesses, now the operating expenses, which was otherwise would have charged to the capital, is now coming to the PNL. So these are the four essential reasons, because of this has gone up. Anshul Thakkar Company Representative, Lalkar Securities Noted. Noted, sir. So, I thought you had already explained operational expenses. My question was more towards other expenses, but, yeah, I get the point. Thank you so much. Manoj Agrawal CFO, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah. Yeah, it is same, same from the other expense. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Meet Vora from Emkay Global. Please go ahead. Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global ... Yeah, hi, sir. Thanks for taking my question. The first question was, if you can guide CapEx and asset turn, year-wise for FY 2025, 2026, 2027 for the battery chemicals business. That would be helpful. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thanks, Meet. Thanks for asking question. Last time when we had a call on battery chemicals, we had stated that we would be investing close to INR 6,000 crore in next four to five years. And this is with asset turnover of two. That is what we had indicated. So again, that there is some time to be given for the capacity to be utilized. So whatever we are investing now, we'll probably see the impact of that coming after a year, year and a half after the investment, and then slowly it will start adding up or building up. So this is, I think that if you are asking for what eventually those CapEx will result in asset turnover, it's approximately 2 for battery chemicals. That's what we had guided. Does it answer your question, Meet? Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global Actually, it was more like, how can I model the yearly numbers? Because obviously we know that it-- there will be some revenue which will come in H2 FY 2025, as per your guidance. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Mm-hmm. Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global Directionally, maybe we would do INR 800 crore of CapEx in FY 2025. That would give us revenues in 2027. So I was more asking from FY 2026 or 2027 point of view. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals See, we have invested already. I'm sorry the presentation may not have stated it clearly, but we have already invested INR 800 crore in battery chemicals till now, which is up to FY 2024. So FY 2025, we have indicated INR 800 crore, which is now we are showing the investment on battery chemicals separately in our presentation. But that doesn't mean that we have that is the total investment. The total, we have already invested INR 800 crore, which is going to give us revenue which is in the second half of this year, and then it will continue to build up in FY 2026. So if the... What you're asking is that impact of CapEx on revenue and EV. The first part is the 800, which we have invested, which is going to result partially in this year and partially in FY 2026. And the 800, which is going to be invested now, will again, after a few quarters, get impacted in the FY 2027. Okay? So it's slowly it builds up over a period of time. So that's— I would so this is how this will unfold. Again, with certain assumptions, you can build up your model. Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global Sure. So secondly on, when we say that our FY 2025 guidance will be more or less within that FY 2023 EBITDA range of, say, INR 1,800-INR 1,900 crores, that means directionally, every quarter we'll have to do roughly INR 450 crores of EBITDA. In Q4, we have done around INR 230 crores of EBITDA. That means we are expecting at least doubling of our EBITDA in Q1, or we are seeing higher growth in the second half. And directionally, if you can give some, you know, quarterly, how are you seeing that ramp up in that, eighteen hundred or nineteen hundred crores of number for FY 2025? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals See, it'll not jump. It'll not be a situation where it'll jump from INR 236-INR 450 and then remain INR 450 for rest of the four quarters. So it'll build up from INR 236, where we are, and then slowly keep on increasing till the Q4 of FY 2025. Okay? Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global Understood, sir. That means, I mean, we would either see very good growth in H2, maybe Q3 and Q4 will be very high in terms of- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Indeed. Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global -quarterly revenue. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Indeed. Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global Okay. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Indeed. Thank you. Meet Vora Lead Analyst, Emkay Global Sure. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Alok B, who is an individual investor. Please go ahead. Speaker 16 Hello, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. There are three basic questions. The first one is that in your presentation, the VCM to VDC integration, when do you expect that to be completed? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah. Yes, Alok. I think the VDC, VCM to VDC, that project has been deferred slightly because, that was primarily more to do our backward integration. At this point of time, you know, the VDC and R-142b prices are still low. So we have a plan. We expect to have this project implemented in due course, perhaps in next, middle of next year or probably end of the next year, something like that. Speaker 16 Okay, all right. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We have all the elements in place. You know, we have, in fact, initiated the work, but because of the lowering of the prices, we have staggered it a little. But that can be quickly executed as and when the market picks up. Okay. Speaker 16 Okay. So then secondly is, even the HFP monomer, I believe it can be made using TFE, but I think in your presentation you are procuring that externally. So is there any reason for that? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals The quantity that we are procuring is quite small, and that, okay. See, our philosophy, Alok, has been to go for backward integration, whenever, you know, it reaches a certain quantity, a certain size. We normally go for backward integration, and that will continue. That, our, this approach will continue. Right now, at least it's not qualifying into the criteria that we have, but as soon as we see a jump in volume, we'll certainly do that, what you're saying. Speaker 16 Okay. Sir, and lastly, coming to the EBITDA margin, I think a lot of people have asked questions on this. But sir, FY 2025, do you think, on a conservative basis, 25%-27% is where you could actually end up, rather than the 30% in FY 2023? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals I'm sorry, I didn't get your question. What? What? Speaker 16 I think you guided that FY 2025 would be comparable or slightly lower than FY 2023. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Okay. Speaker 16 I think the margins you have delivered in FY 2023, the EBITDA margin is about 30%. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Mm-hmm. Speaker 16 Again, I'm just doing the rough math. 30% seems a bit tough, considering that you see quarter-on-quarter improvement. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Mm-hmm. Speaker 16 So do you think that 25%-26% is what you'll be internally targeting, or what we could assume? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals No, no, we are targeting what we have stated. Okay, absolutely. Okay. We have planned for that, and certainly, because that's and the multiple routes to achieve that, and we are doing that. Speaker 16 Okay. So, just one last question, coming to the PVDF battery binder grade, there seem to be two technologies, suspension and emulsion. Any comment on where, what we are working on or what we are getting qualified? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We are, we are in emulsion, and we have stated that. Emulsion. That's, and that's where there are many application in which this is accepted, and, and this is undergoing approvals and testing by customer, as I stated. So we are only in emulsion grade PVDF. Speaker 16 Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. That's just from my end. Thank you very much. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kunal Tokas from Fair Value Capital. Please go ahead. Kunal Tokas Company Representative, Fair Value Capital Hello, sir. Am I audible? Operator Yes, sir, you're audible. Kunal Tokas Company Representative, Fair Value Capital Okay. Just two quick, quick questions. First, how has been the realization trend in PVDF and the new age polymers? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals As I stated, in our presentation, I think the realization has been stable, except for a very low-end fluoropolymer, an example where we were under pressure because of the- Kunal Tokas Company Representative, Fair Value Capital Because of the dumping. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Correct, because of dumping. Other than that, at the higher end polymers, it is more or less stable. Okay. Kunal Tokas Company Representative, Fair Value Capital The outlook is stable as well? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We are, yes, yes. Whatever we have seen in last few quarters, we expect it to continue. Kunal Tokas Company Representative, Fair Value Capital Okay. The second question is related to fluorochemicals. How do you see the current demand and pricing scenario for refrigerant gases, and any improvement that you foresee in the second half of this year? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Unfortunately, we don't see much improvement, because at least in the segment that we are in, because some of wherever in the export market to some extent, except non-U.S. market, it's stable. But because of the duty cuts in U.S. on refrigerants and sort of slowing, I mean, cutting down of quotas, we do not see these prices going back or recovering for refrigerants for us. Kunal Tokas Company Representative, Fair Value Capital Thank you, sir. That were my two questions. Thank you for your time. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thank you. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Deepak, who is an individual investor. Please go ahead. Speaker 16 Sir, good evening sir. I have a couple of questions. How much the EV chemical business will contribute in your basket in FY 2025 and 2026? Also, how much margins you are expecting for the same, in particular, EV chemical and overall revenue number as a whole? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals See, we had, we have already given a guidance, Deepak, that, our margin expectation and the target is 25% in, in the EV business. And, this, as in the one of the previous questions, we had said that as we are adding CapEx... See, the market is slowly building up, okay? And it's growing. And, our approach has been, primarily to cater to, geographical areas where, you know, there is advantage from us being a, supplier from India. And, one of the USP that we are offering is that our supply chain is quite independent, and, we are a, IRA qualified, supplier. So with that kind of, proposition, as the market is building up, we'll start seeing a, build-up in our businesses. Actually, this business will, is expected to have a very high growth in 2027 and onwards. Okay? This is what our plan has been. Our investments are also tuned as per the market growth expectations. Does it answer your question, Deepak? Speaker 16 Yes, sir. One more question, sir. Where do you see the EV chemical sector in the next two or three years if we compare the Chinese market contribution to the world? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals ... I'm sorry, I couldn't, your voice is. Can you speak up? Can you repeat the question, please, Deepak? Speaker 16 Yeah. Yes, sir. Sir, where we see as a EV chemical sector in the next two to three years if we compare the Chinese market contribution to the globe? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals See, let me see if I understand your question. You're asking, is that where do we see the EV sector in view of the Chinese, Speaker 16 Yes, yes. EV chemical sector. Yes, yes. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Okay. So in China, the EV has excess capacity. Everybody knows that. All the battery, chemical, et cetera, has excess capacities. However, if you look at the capacities outside China, it is still not there. It's at very, very early stage. And, so Chinese, and because of the new geopolitical situation, it's there is alternate is being looked at, okay? That where all the supply is going to come from. And, if you look at elsewhere globally, their batteries capacities are slowly coming up, whether it's in Europe or North America. So supply chain is being established to cater to this large jump in the EV demand that is expected to pick up from 2027 onwards. So, we are part of that, we want to be part of that global supply chain, and which is outside China. Speaker 16 Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thanks. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Thanks, sir. Thanks for taking my question again. I've got couple of them. First, on the R-125, now that the pricing doesn't look so lucrative and we are seeing fluoropolymer taking off, does it make sense for us to shut down R-125 and put all the TFE to make the fluoropolymers? Is that option available with us? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes, Sanjesh, that option is available with us, but we still have, still the contribution margins in R-125, as long as it's good. We have TFE capacities available. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Okay, so we are not short of TFE capacity? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals No, no. And whenever situation like this come up, we do optimize with respect to the product mix, which maximizes our overall margins and contributions. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Got it. And second, on the more clarity on the CapEx for the Gujarat fluoro business, that's non-EV business. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities We are anticipating INR 500 crore of CapEx. Where are we planning to spend this? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals This is, Sanjesh, we indicated that part of it is the tail end of our new fluoropolymer expansion, which we had deferred, if you remember. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Right. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Okay. Part of it is going to come for, for it. And part of it is going to be in the backward integration and some of the cost effectiveness programs that we are pushing now to ensure higher contribution margin fluoropolymers. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Fair enough. Fair enough. One last quick question on the bulk chemical. We have at least the Bloomberg suggest that there is a good jump in the caustic prices. Are we seeing that on the ground and will that effect, effects will be visible from Q1? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We are not seeing that on the ground, unfortunately. We are looking forward to it. We are waiting because it's been a very long cycle of low prices in caustic, so we are still waiting for that to happen. But right now, the caustic prices are still quite subdued. Okay. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities But it has improved sequentially a bit? Because we are hearing- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals If I look at my quarter three versus quarter four, it's almost at the same level. There was a little bit improvement, but again, at the same level, I would say. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities So in the Q1 , because I think this price increases have happened in the month of April. So are we- Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals For a very short time. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Okay. It didn't sustain is what we are telling. Hello? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah. I think there was a slight blip, but I think it again subsided. But we are expecting this caustic soda prices to pick up. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Okay. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals But, it's not yet appeared in a sustained way yet, Sanjesh. Sanjesh Jain Assistant VP of Equity research, ICICI Securities Got it. Got it. That, that's it from my side. Thanks for answering all the question and best of luck for the coming quarters. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thanks a lot. Thanks, Sanjesh. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Yash Shah from Investec. Please go ahead. Yash Shah Analyst, Investec Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I just had one clarification question. If you can please share the volume degrowth which you've had in the fluoropolymer segment for the whole year of FY 2024. I just wanted clarification on that. Thank you. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals You mean, Yash, volume... You're looking for volume numbers? Yash Shah Analyst, Investec No, as compared to FY 2023, in the fluoropolymer segment, what kind of degrowth what you've witnessed, just in the fluoropolymer segment? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes, there was a degrowth, and we mentioned that earlier, that the degrowth primarily was driven by slowdown. Two reasons. One, of course, the prices on a very, very low end grades, particularly in the granular. And the second was because the destocking phenomena which happened in global markets. Because of that, the customer has stopped buying it, because in 22 and 23, there was a lot of stock was built up, you know, in order to ensure the sustainability of the supplies, and that part sort of resulted in destocking in FY 2024. So that's because that has impacted our volumes to some extent too. Okay. Yash Shah Analyst, Investec Understood, sir. Will you be able to share the numbers, sir, of the volumes? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Normally, normally, we don't share numbers, particularly for the sales, Yash. Yash Shah Analyst, Investec All agree. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals But you can take it up offline with Vibhu to understand this in more detail, if you would like to. Thanks. Yash Shah Analyst, Investec Perfect, sir. Thank you. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thanks. Thanks, Yash. Thank you so much. Operator Thank you. The next question is from the line of Dhavan Shah from AlfAccurate Advisors. Please go ahead. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, sir. So my question is on the EBITDA. We are running at roughly INR 1,000 crore annual run rate of the EBITDA, and we are expecting roughly INR 2,000 crore in FY 2025. And given that, you know, the basic chemical and the fluorochemical, more or less, it will remain at the same level as you guided in the opening remarks. So this largely INR 1,000 crore incremental EBITDA, we're expecting that this will come from fluoropolymers only? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yeah. Well, that's what we indicated because we said for two reasons. Of course, one is to get back our normal level of sales, and the second is because we added capacities in several new polymers, and those were going through qualification process. So this new fluoropolymers, we are expected to see as providing impetus to the volume growth. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors Okay. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals So this is, indeed correct what you said. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors So what kind of margins are we operating, you know, in the fluoropolymers? Is it 25%-30%? Logically, I think the INR 3,000 crore-INR 4,000 crore incremental revenue you are looking at in FY 2025 from this incremental capacity of fluoropolymers. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Yes. In fact, margin expectation, we have already... We have not ever given the segmental margin, but we have said that on overall basis, it's around 30%, 25%-30%. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors In terms of the revenue, let's say, you know, if you want to have INR 1,000 crore incremental EBITDA, you should do at least INR 3,000 crore incremental revenues. This 3,000 incremental, 3,000 crore incremental revenues would come from which fluoropolymers, in terms of the different PTFE, PFA, PVDF, what kind of numbers are you expecting? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals A lot of it will come mostly from new fluoropolymers, as, as you said, which is the collection of what you stated. So I think it's a, it's a product mix level, which is difficult for me to give you in this short call. However, it'll probably be driven, not probably, it will be driven by, by the new fluoropolymer segments. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors So demand-wise, any outlook, I mean, in terms of, any order book or anything, can you highlight in the other fluoropolymers, which, you know, for which you have already expanded the capacity? How is the order book right now versus the last year? What is the visibility from the customer side? And, any ballpark number or any highlight you can share? Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals See, we have added capacities in, you know, fluoropolymers like FKM, PFA, PVDF, these are the three, and also micropowders. So we had stated this much earlier, capacity, and it's primarily driven by these four segments where the market demand is, and we are present, and we are slowly capturing the market share in this. So what I can suggest again, Dhavan, is because due to lack of time perhaps you can connect with us offline. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors Sure, sir. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals We can share our details. Thanks. Dhavan Shah Senior Equity Research Analyst, AlfAccurate Advisors Sure, sir. Thank you so much. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals Thank you. Operator Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as the last question. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing remarks. Bir Kapoor CEO and Deputy Managing Director, Gujarat Fluorochemicals So thank you very much, and I really appreciate and thank each one of you for showing interest in GFL. And we look forward to a, a growth journey, and we expect to see the results going up quarter- on- quarter and achieve the target that we already stated. So I would like to thank you all for interest shown in GFL, and in case of any questions, I request you to please connect with Mr. Vibhu Agarwal, who looks after our investor relations. So thank you very much, and have a good day. Bye. Operator On behalf of Batlivala & Karani Securities India Private Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your line. Powered by