Camlin Fine Sciences Limited — Q4 FY26

Camlin Fine Sciences Ltd Q4 FY2025-26 Earnings Conference Call https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WWa7sQHwc0 Published: 3 weeks ago

0:01 1 second Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Camden Fine Sciences Limited Q4 and FI26 earnings conference 0:09 9 seconds call. Before we proceed, this conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company which are 0:17 17 seconds based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. 0:25 25 seconds These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involves risk and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. 0:33 33 seconds As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. 0:44 44 seconds Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchstone phone. 0:52 52 seconds Please note that this conference call has been recorded. 0:57 57 seconds I now hand the conference to Mr. Ashi Tandikar, chairman and managing director Camine PI Sciences Limited. Thank you and over to you sir. 1:08 1 minute, 8 seconds Thank you ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the waters earnings call. We know your time is precious. So we will immediately begin the relevant portion. 1:20 1 minute, 20 seconds You will note amongst all the noise that is happening around the world that we have been on a very consistent strategy implementation for the last two years 1:28 1 minute, 28 seconds three years and you'll see the progress in the numbers and in in explanations. 1:34 1 minute, 34 seconds So without anything more I'll hand over to Santo Parab for his brief. 1:42 1 minute, 42 seconds Thanks Ashish. 1:44 1 minute, 44 seconds Good evening everybody and thanks for attending our uh Armen call. uh I'll just start with the brief on what is happening around around the world. 1:54 1 minute, 54 seconds Everybody knows but there has been some some impact on our business in this quarter. Uh this quarter the sale was 2:03 2 minutes, 3 seconds impacted by around 20% due to delay in shipments uh lack of 2:09 2 minutes, 9 seconds ships and increased quite time to our markets across the globe. Uh this prol 2:18 2 minutes, 18 seconds conflict also has affected the availability and prices of some of our raw materials. Uh the longer delivery 2:25 2 minutes, 25 seconds time has also impacted our working capital cycles and that pity of working capital cycle has also percolated in 2:33 2 minutes, 33 seconds some ways on the uh pushing of our business and growing of our business in some of the geographies. uh with this uh 2:42 2 minutes, 42 seconds we clocked around 424 crores of revenue in this year. The total revenue is 1,723. 2:52 2 minutes, 52 seconds You have to note that we have some disclosures on discontinued operation on which I will talk later uh which have 3:00 3 minutes been shifted from the total revenues to a discontinued business since uh the 9 3:08 3 minutes, 8 seconds months revenue and as well as last year's revenue is looking like it has reduced but it is a disclosure the revenues have been made in this this 3:18 3 minutes, 18 seconds quarter also we had 7 to 8 crores of revenue which had to be shown as discontinued business and the total 3:25 3 minutes, 25 seconds revenue of 77 1,723 23 is also lower by around 54 cr 3:34 3 minutes, 34 seconds uh and now come to the uh segments uh our segments the straits business we 3:41 3 minutes, 41 seconds have been able to hold on to our uh uh market share however due to local competition 3:50 3 minutes, 50 seconds and pricing pressures uh uh the revenue from states has reduced a bit. Of 3:56 3 minutes, 56 seconds course, it was also helped by increase in the dollar prices but the local uh competition has impacted us uh sales. 4:06 4 minutes, 6 seconds Uh having said that we changed our strategy of trying to use more of these taste for making blends rather than 4:16 4 minutes, 16 seconds competing it with the local uh Indian competitors. We have been trying to blend uh this states into blends 4:25 4 minutes, 25 seconds business and hence some of the the state sales business has moved to the blends business. In blends uh we have shown 4:34 4 minutes, 34 seconds that has been the hallmark of our uh uh revenue in last few years and we have maintained a steady growth. We have been 4:41 4 minutes, 41 seconds saying that we will be doing uh around 20%, we have clocked 17%, if we add the 4:49 4 minutes, 49 seconds discontinued business of uh uh blends business of uh Europe, we would have grown by 18%. 4:57 4 minutes, 57 seconds uh we missed the target of 20% primarily because uh the projections of Winfi uh 5:05 5 minutes, 5 seconds which did 10 crores in the first month was only able to do around 17 crores in the last three months. As I said the 5:12 5 minutes, 12 seconds working capital cycles and the liquidity crunch has impacted their business but we are confident that it will come and 5:19 5 minutes, 19 seconds it will give the results which are which we have been talking about in mint pie going forward also blend business is 5:27 5 minutes, 27 seconds looking good. I'll tell you about uh it uh after some time. Uh 5:33 5 minutes, 33 seconds uh the van aroma portion uh we had told you last time that we we have changed to 5:41 5 minutes, 41 seconds the ethile venine campaign and we stopped the production of methileine and we had we were not modification but 5:49 5 minutes, 49 seconds changing our uh our uh methile plant into ethileine plant. It took around 2 months and then we started ethileman in 5:58 5 minutes, 58 seconds part. So largely metal when there was very uh small portion of metal and in produced uh in in the quart of four it's 6:06 6 minutes, 6 seconds around 110 metric tons but we did had internal channel stocks we had sold and we were holding into some uh inventories 6:16 6 minutes, 16 seconds in in US especially looking at the tariffs uh tariff going down we had delayed some of the inventories and hold 6:24 6 minutes, 24 seconds those inventories to reduce the tariff impact Uh so internal channel stock the entire sale of van which is being 6:32 6 minutes, 32 seconds apparent Q4 is largely through the internal channel stock which will be liquidated liquidated. We also have some 6:40 6 minutes, 40 seconds internal standard stock still remaining of methile valin which will help us in the coming quarters. Of course ethile 6:47 6 minutes, 47 seconds valin we have orders on hand for the quarter one of around 300 metric tons. 6:53 6 minutes, 53 seconds The plant is running well. We'll be taking a campaign of around 600 metric ton of methile venuine. So we have 7:00 7 minutes enough methile venuine to not enough but a fairly good stock of methile venue to uh 7:08 7 minutes, 8 seconds not allow the market to die. Of course and the tar withdrawn there would be higher realizations. We have started 7:17 7 minutes, 17 seconds looking the green shoots on that. Our uh we did uh the channel stack was sold in the last month and our average 7:26 7 minutes, 26 seconds realization for the company for the van at corn up from 11 to 7:34 7 minutes, 34 seconds more than 12.5 in quarter 4 and we are quite confident that it will grow grow obviously above 7:43 7 minutes, 43 seconds because of no tariff there only 15% tariff is there in in US and Europe. 7:51 7 minutes, 51 seconds Uh this higher re realization will also benefit us in the next quarter. Uh you would have seen 8:00 8 minutes that we also had lost the claim after the uh withdrawal of tariff by the supreme court order. We did had we had 8:09 8 minutes, 9 seconds paid around 9 cr of duty through the customs till February which we applied for the claim and that has reduced our 8:16 8 minutes, 16 seconds cost because the payment of duty of sub cost of goods sold which we have now reduced we are confident that this claim 8:25 8 minutes, 25 seconds will be received desire lodged and accepted by the authorities. If you see the overall cost also remain under 8:33 8 minutes, 33 seconds control. uh as far as employee cost is concerned, we have been saying that we'll be investing in human capital to 8:41 8 minutes, 41 seconds help us grow the business especially in the blend sector and we are really looking at a uh exponential growth in 8:48 8 minutes, 48 seconds blend uh business. Hence last two years if you see we have been investing into employee cost and that's the main one of 8:56 8 minutes, 56 seconds the main reason and increase in employee cost. Of course, binpie also came for four months. This entire quarter uh uh 9:05 9 minutes, 5 seconds results also incurred uh revenues and expenses of winpai uh for the whole quarter last last quarter it was only 9:14 9 minutes, 14 seconds one month that has also pushed the cost overall cost also are under control but for the freight cost which has increased 9:22 9 minutes, 22 seconds in the last six months and some of the other cost but also has contributed to 9:28 9 minutes, 28 seconds increase in that cost resultantly the the pottery bid as in uh 21 crores it's 9:38 9 minutes, 38 seconds 5% uh we I think it's a in the given circumstances it's it's not a bad 9:46 9 minutes, 46 seconds performance obviously going forward the currency fluctuations will impact the 9:53 9 minutes, 53 seconds business but for us needing uh dollar sale uh sales in dollars uh it should 10:00 10 minutes positively impact and it may increase our revenues to extent such extent that we will be able to absorb the increase 10:09 10 minutes, 9 seconds in the cost of the raw materials. Of course may not be entirely but there will be we can recall the cost. Uh this 10:18 10 minutes, 18 seconds year this quarter we also uh uh liquidation of CFS happened. We received 10:25 10 minutes, 25 seconds the order a liquidity order and uh the accounting entries has been done. There 10:31 10 minutes, 31 seconds is a uh gain booked on uh loss of the company which is around uh 100 or which 10:41 10 minutes, 41 seconds you have booked uh this this quarter. uh one good thing about is is the cash burn on this discontinuing operations of 10:50 10 minutes, 50 seconds around 50 60 crores every year is going to come to zero from next quarter and that's that's a big uh cost saving uh 11:00 11 minutes China still remains under liquidation but we don't think the cost will be more than 7 to 8 crit 11:08 11 minutes, 8 seconds just uh quickly on the outlook for the next year uh or the subsequent quarters ban And in business I said will increase 11:16 11 minutes, 16 seconds realization volumes are also likely to increase but yes we have to see the lingering conflict situation how it 11:24 11 minutes, 24 seconds acts. Blends again as I said we have invested into the human capital. We are already have the position to not push 11:34 11 minutes, 34 seconds the blends for higher growth. uh in the first month itself we we have crossed 11:41 11 minutes, 41 seconds more than 100 course of global blends business and that run is taken you can just see the kind of growth we are 11:48 11 minutes, 48 seconds looking at blends obviously we have also uh last Friday we had an unfortunate 11:54 11 minutes, 54 seconds incident though it was not a a fire at the age plant uh fortunately because of 12:02 12 minutes, 2 seconds our responses been quick and safety measures in there the fire fire didn't 12:08 12 minutes, 8 seconds uh uh didn't spread to all the plant we were able to contain it. uh there will be some uh uh loss but we will be we 12:18 12 minutes, 18 seconds have adequate insured power. In fact, we were we had reduced the uh or planning 12:25 12 minutes, 25 seconds to uh close down the plant or shut down the plant of denol especially with the price as you know the our basic raw 12:33 12 minutes, 33 seconds material price is 85 rupees is now being quoted at more than 150 rupees per kg 12:40 12 minutes, 40 seconds and uh the availability is also not consistent. So at present we are getting 12:46 12 minutes, 46 seconds it but we are not sure uh if the conflict lingers how it will look like. 12:51 12 minutes, 51 seconds So we had taken a cautious decision that uh we should reduce the cash burn because of the high pricing and lower 12:59 12 minutes, 59 seconds realization in catacomb. We had already secured hydro finance from 13:06 13 minutes, 6 seconds China which is at a very reasonable rate and can m uh we would save by purchase rather than manufacture. 13:17 13 minutes, 17 seconds Uh which helps us to keep our downstream of sales running catapult. We already have enough stock because the plants 13:25 13 minutes, 25 seconds were running at 60 70% last year and it was not matching the the consumption was 13:32 13 minutes, 32 seconds not enough uh for the van and hence yet we have enough stocks in this system of catapult which can sustain 8 to 9 months 13:41 13 minutes, 41 seconds of our van production. So having said that things look good. We we will we 13:49 13 minutes, 49 seconds will be looking at how to use or repurpose this denol plant. We we have to also look at how the prices move. 13:58 13 minutes, 58 seconds What will be the uh the raw material prices of denos? How the competition is 14:04 14 minutes, 4 seconds looking at it? how the Chinese are responding to the whole situation and also the conflict and soon we'll take 14:13 14 minutes, 13 seconds some decision and uh decide on the parts of the diagnum 14:24 14 minutes, 24 seconds for questions. Thank you very much. 14:30 14 minutes, 30 seconds We will now begin with a question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchstone telephone. 14:41 14 minutes, 41 seconds If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. 14:47 14 minutes, 47 seconds Participants, you are requested to use while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question to send. 15:00 15 minutes A reminder to all. You may press star and one to ask a question. 15:06 15 minutes, 6 seconds We will take the first question from the line of Raman Ki from Sequent investments. Please go ahead. 15:12 15 minutes, 12 seconds Uh hello sir. Uh I just have uh some doubts. One is with respect to denol prices which you said have increased 15:20 15 minutes, 20 seconds drastically from 85 to 150. Uh this is a raw material for production of what actually? 15:32 15 minutes, 32 seconds Hello. Can you hear me? 15:34 15 minutes, 34 seconds Yeah. So dphenol is the product which we manufacture. Dphenol is nothing but hydroken and katakon. I was talking 15:42 15 minutes, 42 seconds about the raw material phenol which was generally 85 rupees or last just before the conflict. 15:50 15 minutes, 50 seconds Now it has gone up to 150. So naturally the the cost of production of uh of our 15:57 15 minutes, 57 seconds product hydropon and catacol have drastically increased. 16:02 16 minutes, 2 seconds Okay understood. And catacol we are manufacturing internally and hydroco and we are supplying it from China. Right. 16:11 16 minutes, 11 seconds We manufacture hydropen and katakol together as dphenols. Okay. 16:16 16 minutes, 16 seconds If we stop the dphenol plant both of the prod products cannot be manufactured. I was saying that hydrokinan we used to we 16:25 16 minutes, 25 seconds use entirely for our states production valuing it that hydrokinan we'll be importing as far as catacol is concerned 16:34 16 minutes, 34 seconds because vaneline plant has not achieved enough capacity utilization last year we 16:40 16 minutes, 40 seconds are carrying enough katakol which can uh help us to produce vanoline for next 8 16:47 16 minutes, 47 seconds to 9 months and that catacol will not be importing We we will be importing hydrokinan for our downstreams and that 16:55 16 minutes, 55 seconds hydrokinan we have already secured from Chinese manufacturers for next next quarter. 17:04 17 minutes, 4 seconds Okay, understood sir. So basically we don't have any impact of any direct impact of this uh sudden rise of final prices if my understanding is right. 17:15 17 minutes, 15 seconds So yes we are trying to make or buy it's it's a simple thing it's better to buy now the raw metal than making it at 17:23 17 minutes, 23 seconds higher cost. So you're right in that sense and we are buying hydropon so that our real downstream sales of streets and vanoline 17:31 17 minutes, 31 seconds we are able to keep that sale and at a reasonable margins then producing it at present. 17:39 17 minutes, 39 seconds Okay. So, and the uh one uh from the PBT I can from the uh obviously from the report uh result and the PBT I can see 17:48 17 minutes, 48 seconds that we have 85 crores gain from discontinued operation. Can you just elaborate what is this? 17:56 17 minutes, 56 seconds So as you know I just mentioned that we have this CFS Europe subsidiary which was uh liquidated and there were certain 18:04 18 minutes, 4 seconds loans in that subsidiary which has been booked as a gain on demogation of CFS 18:12 18 minutes, 12 seconds Europe and that's that's what has come this is this is it's around 95 crores of loan but the uh credit to credit is 18:21 18 minutes, 21 seconds lower because there are some discontinued business and the losses there which have been adequately ly explained in the notes. So that this 18:29 18 minutes, 29 seconds this discontinued business the the credit is largely on account of the loans which which are dereco recognized 18:37 18 minutes, 37 seconds from the financial statements for the on liquidation of CFS. 18:46 18 minutes, 46 seconds Okay. And so uh with respect to vanlin uh you have mentioned that the internet channel stock of vaning has been liquidated at the end of quarter four. 18:55 18 minutes, 55 seconds So now can we expect our realization to move uh upwards given that the inventory 19:03 19 minutes, 3 seconds has been liquidated uh at the along at the same time the US tariff has reduced from 50% to uh 25%. 19:13 19 minutes, 13 seconds So as I started with saying that we had taken a campaign of ethile van. We have two vanies methile and ethile. Till now 19:21 19 minutes, 21 seconds we were producing methile and selling methile. We had a good order book of ethile vanin and hence we wanted to 19:30 19 minutes, 30 seconds produce ethile vanin. For that purpose we had to take a break of methile valin. 19:34 19 minutes, 34 seconds We stopped the production of methile wine from 15th of January. So there was hardly any production here but we have sale of manlin and that sale of manlin 19:42 19 minutes, 42 seconds is from the internal channel stocks in the in the sense the material which we had sold uh to us to our subsidiary was 19:50 19 minutes, 50 seconds carrying the stock. So that channel stock has been sold in this quarter and that's why you can see the revenue and 19:57 19 minutes, 57 seconds still we are carrying internal channel stocks which will be sold in the subsequent quarter and we'll also be 20:04 20 minutes, 4 seconds selling ital manage which the campaign has started and the production we we have got from April. So in April the in 20:12 20 minutes, 12 seconds the Q1 quarter we'll be selling it value which we are producing now and we'll be selling some channel stocks indent stocks of metal value. 20:24 20 minutes, 24 seconds Now coming down to prices you had that last last I'll last point. Yes, the tariffs have gone down. Naturally, we 20:32 20 minutes, 32 seconds were impacted. The basic prices in in US have not moved. They're 18 uh 17 and a 20:39 20 minutes, 39 seconds half $18 in US because the uh duty was at our cost. We had to sale from India at 112. Now duty reduced our 20:48 20 minutes, 48 seconds realizations will increase. In fact, as I said, the our realization moved from sub$111 in the last quarter to almost 20:58 20 minutes, 58 seconds 12.5 plus dollars in this quarter and naturally the realizations are better. 21:04 21 minutes, 4 seconds Uh realizations will increase in the next quarter. 21:11 21 minutes, 11 seconds Just a follow up on that. Uh is there any realization difference from metal when we compare metal van toal van? I 21:20 21 minutes, 20 seconds just want to understand the rational behind switching from metal van toal ethile van. 21:25 21 minutes, 25 seconds Generally metal and ethal the customers like to have uh ethile is a more stronger note product. Uh so it 21:35 21 minutes, 35 seconds consumption is lesser than methile vanin but the customers ask for ethile vanlin also and they're happy if the supplier 21:43 21 minutes, 43 seconds is is able to sell both the vanlins. Now having said that this ethile van's price difference generally is$1 to $1 and a 21:52 21 minutes, 52 seconds half dollars more than methile van but our cost is also almost one $1 more. So 21:59 21 minutes, 59 seconds either I say methile or ethile my realizations the margins for dollar per kg remain the same. 22:07 22 minutes, 7 seconds Understood sir. Understood. Thank you sir. 22:13 22 minutes, 13 seconds Thank you. We will take the next question from the line of Rashikes Sha from Alkeni Capital. Please go ahead. 22:21 22 minutes, 21 seconds Yeah. Uh am I ordering? 22:24 22 minutes, 24 seconds Yes. Yeah. Uh thank you for taking my question. Uh sir, I wanted to know what would be a panel in sales this quarter? 22:32 22 minutes, 32 seconds Quantity. 22:35 22 minutes, 35 seconds Uh in quantities or in quantity in quantity? 22:40 22 minutes, 40 seconds In quantity. Minimum we sold quarter 22:49 22 minutes, 49 seconds around 320 321. 22:54 22 minutes, 54 seconds So if I remember yeah if I remember correctly in Q3 you had mentioned that we had 200 tons of 23:02 23 minutes, 2 seconds vanoline uh which we had held back. So I thought this what do we might see a better uh 23:09 23 minutes, 9 seconds volume sales. So what would be the reason for only 320? I know that we had to hold off our production but still we 23:18 23 minutes, 18 seconds had 650 crores in CH 650 tons in a channel with subsidiaries and everywhere. So I think our volume should have been better, right? 23:29 23 minutes, 29 seconds So I'll just put this the same numbers which you said we talked last in February. By that we had done 100 tons. 23:37 23 minutes, 37 seconds We said that we'll be doing 200 more tons by holding back the stock and trying to take them benefit of realization at 300. And as I said I'm 23:47 23 minutes, 47 seconds still carrying around 300 tons of vanoline uh stock in the channel to sell 23:54 23 minutes, 54 seconds in quarter one. That's how it 600 works out, right? Okay. So, okay. Got it. Uh, so my 24:03 24 minutes, 3 seconds second question was if we look at our profitability, uh, how much of an impact would you say 24:10 24 minutes, 10 seconds this Middle East crisis had on our AIA? See because if I remove the 24:17 24 minutes, 17 seconds 10 crores or 12 crores of tariff rebate that we have got then aa would have been around 10 crores. 24:27 24 minutes, 27 seconds So it is only two 2.5% AITA margin FI27 we have guided for double digit. So what 24:36 24 minutes, 36 seconds do you think would be would there be any change to our guidance revenue wise and margin wise? 24:44 24 minutes, 44 seconds Yeah. 24:44 24 minutes, 44 seconds So I'll explain to you the Middle East crisis has impacted our sale by about 50 crores 24:52 24 minutes, 52 seconds or so. As well as as San Pantosh mentioned earlier in in his uh opening 24:58 24 minutes, 58 seconds uh remarks that the VIP acquisition there was an IDIA loss a loss at Eida 25:05 25 minutes, 5 seconds level of 10 crores. This was due to some liquidity issues uh which Vai had uh which of course we are addressing. So if 25:13 25 minutes, 13 seconds you combine these two um our bida should have been higher by about 34. 25:21 25 minutes, 21 seconds Okay. And and we're not changing our guidance and we are not changing our guidance for FI27. We're guiding on the same line. 25:29 25 minutes, 29 seconds Right. answer this uh right now see now let's say our tariffs are down to 18%. 25:36 25 minutes, 36 seconds And we are able to sell it at $18. Uh eile would be at uh $20 or something. So 25:44 25 minutes, 44 seconds what would be a blended realization we can take for FI27? 25:50 25 minutes, 50 seconds So I think it'll be around in the range of 13 and a half to $14. Okay. 25:57 25 minutes, 57 seconds And I more question on the blend child. 26:00 26 minutes So blend and beta 4 uh what would be the beta break even we can expect at what rate? 26:09 26 minutes, 9 seconds Yeah. So beta 4 is at 15 uh with 16 million for the whole year and so is uh 26:17 26 minutes, 17 seconds winpai is also at the same level 14 to 16 million. 26:20 26 minutes, 20 seconds Okay. Okay. I'll come back if I have any other questions. Thanks a lot. 26:30 26 minutes, 30 seconds Thank you. We will take the next question from the line of Anish Dari from Vario. Please go ahead. 26:38 26 minutes, 38 seconds Hi, can you uh explain or help us understand your debt levels uh at March 26:45 26 minutes, 45 seconds 26 and how you plan to uh manage your cash flow in uh fiscal 27 in terms of how much you expect from operations and 26:54 26 minutes, 54 seconds any other sources to meet your uh debt payments and working capital requirements as you're growing your business again. 27:05 27 minutes, 5 seconds So last year we had we started with around 620 crores of debt. Uh our business was 27:14 27 minutes, 14 seconds increasing. We did take some debt in in India of around 45 crores on working 27:21 27 minutes, 21 seconds capital. Uh uh which is an increase. If you have seen we also uh borrowed 30 27:29 27 minutes, 29 seconds crores for our win open offer. uh we borrowed at the year end 27:35 27 minutes, 35 seconds on a global basis uh VNPI was added to the whole KT this year it was acquired 27:43 27 minutes, 43 seconds it had around 6 and a half million of loans in it books so that was 60 crores orders increased because of that loan 27:52 27 minutes, 52 seconds uh but however the increase in the total loan is only by 50 crores because we knocked out around 85 crores of Italian 28:00 28 minutes loans so So at the end of this year we have around our 670 crores loan. Uh out 28:08 28 minutes, 8 seconds of that we are carrying 30 crores in ASRO which is for the uh the the VIP open offer. Having said said that 28:17 28 minutes, 17 seconds this 670 crores the overall uh repayment for the whole year in a consolidated BC 28:23 28 minutes, 23 seconds is around 60 to 70 crores. We think that it could be managed. There will be some 28:30 28 minutes, 30 seconds uh stress on if our uh turnovers increase uh at a faster rate, we will 28:38 28 minutes, 38 seconds require additional uh uh liquidity uh and additional support. We are looking 28:45 28 minutes, 45 seconds at some kind of an uh support uh from the market on debt uh for the growth as 28:52 28 minutes, 52 seconds well as stabilizing the current business and have some cash to uh tide over this uh conflict situation. It's better to 29:01 29 minutes, 1 second have some cash because there could be longetivity of the working capital if the conflict lingers 29:10 29 minutes, 10 seconds right. So are you looking at uh some uh degree of capital infusion just to make it even more uh more resilient uh so 29:18 29 minutes, 18 seconds that you can pursue your growth plan uh capital infusion is the last resort. We 29:26 29 minutes, 26 seconds are in the market for debt at this moment. So that looks like a better option. uh but uh we know that the times 29:35 29 minutes, 35 seconds are difficult and that's why we have kept that door open and you have seen that we have increased our authorized 29:42 29 minutes, 42 seconds capital to some extent in the month of March but at this moment we are uh equity 29:49 29 minutes, 49 seconds infusion is really a last not on the table at all and is that uh you're looking at this is 29:57 29 minutes, 57 seconds a simple plain bank debt or this is more structured or bit of a hype high yield that of between equity and that kind of 30:04 30 minutes, 4 seconds looking in a combo uh because we have we have large now network of our companies all over the place. So looking at the 30:13 30 minutes, 13 seconds nature of the for a for if you see in India I'll go for a structured debt. So for example in if I if I borrow in Mexico it will be more of a bank debt. 30:24 30 minutes, 24 seconds So we will be looking at a combo. We we have kept all doors open as you know the times are difficult especially to have cash on the market right in debt 30:33 30 minutes, 33 seconds situation. So largely structured because in this situation but we are also looking at the bad finance 30:41 30 minutes, 41 seconds and and do we have some sort of a sense or range what cost it would come at it's very difficult how because it will 30:50 30 minutes, 50 seconds be assessed the the guy who gives structure fun is going to assess my risk and but he'll try to keep it at as minimum as possible as the market rates. 31:00 31 minutes Got it. The second question I had in the industry cycle you were talking about uh inventories in the channels reducing in US um and then maybe you getting your 31:09 31 minutes, 9 seconds volumes back in US. How is that situation u when you think you can get your volumes strongly going in US? 31:17 31 minutes, 17 seconds This is for the van business. Yeah business. Yeah. 31:21 31 minutes, 21 seconds Yeah. the van business this year as we've said in the past our uh estimate for FI27 in the US will be around the 31:30 31 minutes, 30 seconds 2200 to 2,400 metric tons and um we are on stream uh to to achieve that number 31:39 31 minutes, 39 seconds that's both methile and ethile together so um we have several businesses already 31:46 31 minutes, 46 seconds contracted and some being contracted so I think that uh 22 to 2400 uh is is what they're looking at for this year. 31:55 31 minutes, 55 seconds Will it be more coming in uh second half or even Q1 Q2 can also see a strong pick up wherein Q4 was just a 300 plus terms. 32:04 32 minutes, 4 seconds Yeah. So Q Q1 also uh will show some uh pick up in in the US but the total combined between your US and Europe um 32:14 32 minutes, 14 seconds Q1 will show some uh growth over Q4 of last last year of sorry 26. 32:21 32 minutes, 21 seconds Got it. And then it'll keep picking up to meet your guidance. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. 32:32 32 minutes, 32 seconds Thank you. We will take the next question from the line of Rahan from Coher and Bel. Please go ahead. Please go ahead. 32:40 32 minutes, 40 seconds Hi, thank you for the opportunity. I had couple of questions across the business. 32:44 32 minutes, 44 seconds Um, what is the tonnage or catacle inventory we're sitting on in terms of uh for now? 32:52 32 minutes, 52 seconds So, it's about uh in the region of about 3,000 tons. 32:57 32 minutes, 57 seconds So that in terms of vanoline yield is how much approximately between methile and ethile because I know the yield would be different because of katakol 33:05 33 minutes, 5 seconds sorry yeah so so it's about 1 is to1 roughly for a calculation you can take 1 is to1 33:12 33 minutes, 12 seconds for both for methile and ethile okay and considering our guidance for fi 27 has been about 70% utilization so 33:20 33 minutes, 20 seconds that would be about 4,000 to 4,200 tons of vanoline where would the balance come from. 33:28 33 minutes, 28 seconds So we buy from China. So you'll buy katakol from China. 33:33 33 minutes, 33 seconds Yeah. Either catacol or okay. And then you will blend it here and do the need for Yeah. Then then we'll do it here. Yeah. 33:40 33 minutes, 40 seconds Then the the final step I mean whatever the manufacturing is done. 33:46 33 minutes, 46 seconds Understood. And uh I just the tariff currently as for my understanding is 10% not 18%. Right. Because of the 33:54 33 minutes, 54 seconds 15%. 15 there's a base so there's a base 5 and a half% duty and then there's 10% tariff across the board so it's 15 and a half 34:02 34 minutes, 2 seconds so your current realization would be about $16 odd dollars in US at the moment 34:09 34 minutes, 9 seconds no I know because uh the GDP pricing today in the US market our competitor science score is selling at about $17 to 34:17 34 minutes, 17 seconds $18 so um there is a holding cost there's a holding cost and the tariff 34:24 34 minutes, 24 seconds cost and some channel um financing costs. So all of that gives us net realization 34:31 34 minutes, 31 seconds would probably be in the region of about $13. 34:35 34 minutes, 35 seconds But I think couple of quarters back we had seen prices timed at $19.5. 34:41 34 minutes, 41 seconds Correct? Yeah. So but school is trying to saturate the market. I mean get the Chinese out of the market 34:49 34 minutes, 49 seconds completely and they they've taken this position of pricing and we can't price higher than them. So we kind of maintain 34:57 34 minutes, 57 seconds pricing along with them but I think in the next quarters they have no choice but to increase the price and that's what we are we are uh thinking that they 35:05 35 minutes, 5 seconds would look at uh increasing the prices to the 19 to $20. 35:10 35 minutes, 10 seconds So your pricing for Q1 as on blended across Europe and uh US uh realization 35:17 35 minutes, 17 seconds would be about like inhand post tariff will be about closer to 14. Yeah 13 and a half 14 in that range. 35:26 35 minutes, 26 seconds Okay. And uh is there because it's been almost a year since you know the add came in. Are we now seeing that now? Is 35:34 35 minutes, 34 seconds the channel clear because prices should have been north of $20 by now excluding science co even them I mean I'm wondering how is with this inflationary scenario. 35:43 35 minutes, 43 seconds Yeah surprising what they're doing but I think uh we expect them to change their position in the next uh couple of months 35:52 35 minutes, 52 seconds they will increase it because they've kind of uh you know their capacity utilization would be at 100% by then. So 36:00 36 minutes they they naturally they'll have increased the prices. Yeah. 36:04 36 minutes, 4 seconds And uh the the cost currently that the company is in incurring because of employees uh is this at as we had 36:12 36 minutes, 12 seconds discussed earlier in the February con as well. This is the peak right now. Now now we will let the business stabilize a bit because you've done two 36:19 36 minutes, 19 seconds acquisitions. You have a new facility coming on stream which is abandoned. So now is this the peak hiring? We're not seeing more increased employee expenses on the PNN. 36:28 36 minutes, 28 seconds Yes. No. So I I don't think there will be significant uh changes. It will be in this region. 36:36 36 minutes, 36 seconds So then do we I mean considering you moving from an like from manufacturing to you know importing and then doing your value addition here with vanoline 36:45 36 minutes, 45 seconds scaling up and blends in its nature is already acid light. Um are you on track to deliver about 300 330 crores of Ebida 36:54 36 minutes, 54 seconds for FI27 because Vanlin alone at at your current realizations of 13 and a half 14 should give you 200 crores of Ebida. 37:02 37 minutes, 2 seconds Yeah. So the way we are seeing it is that on the top line we should be in the region of uh between 22 to 2400. 37:12 37 minutes, 12 seconds Mhm. 37:12 37 minutes, 12 seconds And IDA margins uh would be between 12 to 14%. on overall basis. So that's um 37:21 37 minutes, 21 seconds the swing. Of course, we do have uh a plant which we are trying to look at what to do with uh to make into 37:28 37 minutes, 28 seconds multi-purpose and see if we can reduce some of the costs on our uh raw materials as well. Um 37:35 37 minutes, 35 seconds so there are different programs which we are working on. uh that's why the range would be uh between 12 to 14% uh in 37:43 37 minutes, 43 seconds terms of a bit and top line also would be in this range of 22 to 2400. 37:49 37 minutes, 49 seconds So going forward we don't have any European losses. The Chinese losses I think are about 8 to 10 8 crores odd annually right um which is about two cr 37:58 37 minutes, 58 seconds one and a half two crores a quarter and considering you have about 300 odd cross 300 tons of stock in Vanden plus a 600 38:06 38 minutes, 6 seconds metric t campaign so are we are we moving back to double digit margins in Q1 onwards at least because Q4 we 38:15 38 minutes, 15 seconds expected some sequential um performance but I think we've slipped further because of the geopolitical tension 38:23 38 minutes, 23 seconds your political correct. So, so Q1 is difficult to uh say that whether we because we did have manufacturing of 38:30 38 minutes, 30 seconds diet till the 22nd of May uh when we discontinued and we started getting material uh from China which now we are 38:38 38 minutes, 38 seconds consuming. So the full impact of that will will really come in Q2. So but you would also have but you would 38:45 38 minutes, 45 seconds also have phenol inventory right which would give you some inventory gain. No no no no we no phenol we don't have any inventory because um we it's just in 38:54 38 minutes, 54 seconds time because it's next door no the the deeper phenolics plant so we have we don't keep any stock we just keep it's 39:02 39 minutes, 2 seconds just in time supply so are we in Q1 are we are we going to maintain these 48% gross margins or are 39:09 39 minutes, 9 seconds we going to slip down because I mean if you're if you're going to do 4,000 tons of value we'll maintain we maintain that 39:16 39 minutes, 16 seconds margin there could be 1% up or But we should be able to maintain that margin because at 700 tons of vanlin alone even 39:25 39 minutes, 25 seconds I I mean sorry not 700 a thousand tons of vanlin even if I take it as a quarterly phenomena I know it's not that way but if you had to even average it 39:33 39 minutes, 33 seconds out for then just for simplicity that alone should give you back to your old numbers right at I mean at 13 and a half 39:41 39 minutes, 41 seconds with this current rupee depreciation even if your cost of manufacturing is $99.5 all inclusive you're at 360 rupees 39:49 39 minutes, 49 seconds a kg at 1,000 tons that's automatically 30 36 37 crores of ebida so I mean I'm 39:57 39 minutes, 57 seconds just not understanding the numbers if you can help me understand the same no so again the raw material costs have 40:05 40 minutes, 5 seconds gone up right the $9 is no longer $9 because phenol cost uh and all other raw material costs have gone up in the uh 40:15 40 minutes, 15 seconds geo with this the current situ situation that we are seeing. So that 9 and a half assumption is is was prior to the war. 40:24 40 minutes, 24 seconds After that of course with all these costs increases um your your realization has not gone up but your cost has gone 40:31 40 minutes, 31 seconds up for vanin. So when I look at vanoline I would say you bake in about you know uh 40:40 40 minutes, 40 seconds but this catacol is but this catacol is old inventory right as Santosa also mentioned that 3,000 tons is not come 40:47 40 minutes, 47 seconds now but you know catol is only katakol is only a quarter of the raw materials there are other raw materials as well so 40:55 40 minutes, 55 seconds for example glyolic acid costic costic is actually uh equal in um uh value as 41:02 41 minutes, 2 seconds as categories and that has gone up by you know literally doubled up in in the last uh after the the the war situation 41:11 41 minutes, 11 seconds the total cost it still be seven and a half pre-war with around two $2 of category 41:19 41 minutes, 19 seconds so you can just imagine there are lot of other going which can really get impacted by the geopolitical situation 41:28 41 minutes, 28 seconds so today what is your at current pricing even at what is cost to make a at 4,000 tons what will be your per kg cost of 41:36 41 minutes, 36 seconds vanolin so my raw model cost even if you hold on to the catal and we assume that around 41:43 41 minutes, 43 seconds 20 to 20 to 25% increase in cost so if I knock out $2 one and a half $2 from my 41:51 41 minutes, 51 seconds total cost of seven and a half uh per five [clears throat] that's how boss was 41:58 41 minutes, 58 seconds saying $9 so today Is it? Yeah. Today is it $10 or 9 and a 42:04 42 minutes, 4 seconds half in sorry to interrupt in between this is on the same madam. 42:11 42 minutes, 11 seconds No Santo what is the current cost of per kg of vanlin at these levels. 42:15 42 minutes, 15 seconds Yes. So that's what I'm saying. So the raw material and the raw material cost which was $75 has gone up by at least a $120. So, it's 42:24 42 minutes, 24 seconds almost $9 is a raw RMC plus your conversion cost at 4,000 tons. If you were to uh look at your conversion cost, it would be at $15. 42:33 42 minutes, 33 seconds So, you're at $10.5 of base cost and your realization is 13 13.5. So you're 42:42 42 minutes, 42 seconds talking of a $3 spread on a 800 ton um uh uh in the first quarter you're 42:49 42 minutes, 49 seconds looking at 22 22 23 crores coming from there not 3536 what you're making in 42:57 42 minutes, 57 seconds sorry to interrupt in between Rahan I would request you to please rejoin the queue again for more questions as we have participants waiting in the queue. 43:09 43 minutes, 9 seconds Thank you. 43:11 43 minutes, 11 seconds We will take the next question from the line of Surya Patra from Philip Capital. Please go ahead. 43:18 43 minutes, 18 seconds Yeah, thank you for this opportunity. Uh sir, my first question on the on the 43:24 43 minutes, 24 seconds let's say the the base business uh PBS, BSA and all those kind of things. So the 43:31 43 minutes, 31 seconds kind of price pressure competition uh also the kind of a recent uh in 43:38 43 minutes, 38 seconds general rise in chemicals prices because of the uh the war situation what we have seen. So given those background what is 43:47 43 minutes, 47 seconds the kind of outlook that you'll be having on that u the states with specialty ingredients as well as the specialty the states business. 43:59 43 minutes, 59 seconds So in the trade business some of the cost increases uh we we we will be able to pass on and we are 44:07 44 minutes, 7 seconds passing on the BHU prices have uh corrected and have gone up um to reflect that uh BHA pricing also is slightly 44:15 44 minutes, 15 seconds better than it was pre-war. Uh so in terms of passing on 44:22 44 minutes, 22 seconds the the the the increase of cost uh with the lag we are in in track to be able to pass it on. So I don't see a problem 44:30 44 minutes, 30 seconds with that. As far as volume is concerned, I think we are gaining a lot of market share also in the blends 44:37 44 minutes, 37 seconds business where our TVHQ and BHA consumption, internal consumption is growing which also is giving us um 44:46 44 minutes, 46 seconds some economies of scale in in terms of uh production of uh TBHQ and BHA. 44:52 44 minutes, 52 seconds So uh uh uh whether the outlook for 27 it would be positive or how how should one really think so 45:00 45 minutes for TV it is positive yes for BBH tob it is positive the outlook and from the performance chemical point of view it will be 45:08 45 minutes, 8 seconds yeah we don't have much for performance chemicals we don't have much now and now with catacol uh I mean after stopping um 45:16 45 minutes, 16 seconds the dphenol uh production uh the the performance chemicals will be very small part. We're not selling you 45:25 45 minutes, 25 seconds know we were making hydroon and selling some hydroon also in the market. So slowly all of that will will go. So we not really the focus is not on that. 45:33 45 minutes, 33 seconds Okay. Okay. Uh now second question is on the the supply chain issue practically that you would be seeing currently. uh 45:41 45 minutes, 41 seconds uh so uh uh there was a obviously difficult situation whether the host is behind now and uh Q1 onwards should we 45:50 45 minutes, 50 seconds see a kind of a uh improved supply situation uh for us or there would be still there would be some challenges uh 45:58 45 minutes, 58 seconds relating to some uh particular uh input uh if you can highlight that and 46:05 46 minutes, 5 seconds see the the the problem is as you know uh in the supply chain And the bigger problem is uh logistics and that is very 46:15 46 minutes, 15 seconds very unpredictable because what looks like 20day shipments are taking sometimes 40 days to come or 50 days to come. 46:23 46 minutes, 23 seconds So that uncertainty till this geopolitical situation settles down will remain and uh very difficult to predict 46:31 46 minutes, 31 seconds whether that will very quickly correct or you know it'll take maybe a few months to correct. So there the override 46:39 46 minutes, 39 seconds remains because even if the situation is I don't think the logistic guy will immediately come down. In fact tomorrow 46:47 46 minutes, 47 seconds morning I meeting uh one of our guys Vans who is a big uh logistic guy is coming and I know why he's coming. He 46:55 46 minutes, 55 seconds wants to increase the price. uh the cost the cost if you compare uh pre-war and now in fact pre-war also the cost were 47:04 47 minutes, 4 seconds increasing of threat [clears throat] the cost as far as we are concerned where we we put almost lot of material 47:11 47 minutes, 11 seconds across the globe in the American continent both north and south of it the cost are almost three times 47:20 47 minutes, 20 seconds and yes you can always say why it's not but it doesn't work like that you So I don't think even if tomorrow the 47:30 47 minutes, 30 seconds war stop stops this this thing is going to get unwound in in a day or a week. We feel that this will linger on for some 47:38 47 minutes, 38 seconds time at least it will take a quarter to come back to the normal situation. 47:43 47 minutes, 43 seconds So then H1 of FI27 is a continued impacted period for the business 47:49 47 minutes, 49 seconds generally theoretically that is what one should believe. 47:56 47 minutes, 56 seconds So how how this pans out on cost basis I feel that the cost of trade may remain high. If uh even if the war is over and 48:04 48 minutes, 4 seconds the the the crude remains as 100 then there's no rich fight right for the for the stock. So so it's very unpredictable. 48:13 48 minutes, 13 seconds The question is if if the crude is 100 how much I can trans pass it on to my my customer right 48:20 48 minutes, 20 seconds and how how much I may have to bear from that. It's a very difficult calculation to say. Um 48:28 48 minutes, 28 seconds I feel that even a stable growth of 10 to 15% over these two quarters is great. Really great. 48:36 48 minutes, 36 seconds Okay. Uh says about vanilla business you have talked about it already. So since 48:43 48 minutes, 43 seconds uh the tariff US tariff was not there or almost a near normal kind of tariff situation that has been there in some 48:50 48 minutes, 50 seconds time and uh uh uh so and this is a kind of a year- end situation and normally 48:59 48 minutes, 59 seconds the order book buildups time also. So any order book buildup that you have seen uh for FI27 and hence that 49:09 49 minutes, 9 seconds confidence that okay the certain quantum of the supply that is definitely possible irrespective of the pricing or 49:16 49 minutes, 16 seconds the cost equation and also Yes sir. 49:22 49 minutes, 22 seconds Yeah. So to answer that we started with the ethile vanin campaign and the campaign is for 600 tons and we already 49:30 49 minutes, 30 seconds have a order book covering 50% of that and the the campaign is for we'll have to maintain stocks also because we can't 49:39 49 minutes, 39 seconds be out of the market once we change back to methile. 49:42 49 minutes, 42 seconds So I I think in terms of demand uh what we were saying between you know around that 4,000 ton mark I think is is is um very very doable. 49:55 49 minutes, 55 seconds Okay. 49:55 49 minutes, 55 seconds Our bigger challenge is of course the longer working capital cycles and uh logistics and cash flow. So that's 50:02 50 minutes, 2 seconds that's what we need to address because we have a large order book even in our all our businesses actually and um 50:10 50 minutes, 10 seconds executing that with tight cash flow position is a bigger challenge than the market itself. 50:17 50 minutes, 17 seconds Okay. And if you can also just add up on to the kind of your outlook about vanilla for the European market uh what 50:25 50 minutes, 25 seconds inventory situation now do you see some easing situation in the Europe at least not Europe? Yeah, the market situation is 50:33 50 minutes, 33 seconds much better. Uh, in the vanin also out of the 300 150 is coming from Europe and 50:41 50 minutes, 41 seconds mythile van we have no stocks to give to the European market till we start our campaign again. So the market is coming back. So I mean what we had said that 50:49 50 minutes, 49 seconds 1500 1600 tons for the year. I think we're good for that. 50:53 50 minutes, 53 seconds Okay. Okay. Just last one point from my side uh about the vinpi and uh the vita 51:00 51 minutes for ramp up. So we have been trying to build up the field force uh for scaling up those operations which was almost 51:08 51 minutes, 8 seconds like stalled uh before acquisition. So uh what is the field force addition practically now we have created for in 51:16 51 minutes, 16 seconds during FI26 and uh uh and whatever the exit rate revenue that we have seen for both these 51:23 51 minutes, 23 seconds two businesses. So how what is the kind of scale up that we should see in the blend operation? 51:31 51 minutes, 31 seconds So in the blend operation we close the year at 1,000 50 including this 1,50 including this sentin this this 51:41 51 minutes, 41 seconds year we are looking at anything northward 1400 crores for the fi 27 in the blended 51:48 51 minutes, 48 seconds business. So um as far as adding um sales force it is across the world. So 51:56 51 minutes, 56 seconds it's not only for vin or vita we've also added workforce because the markets are in different places right. So the the 52:04 52 minutes, 4 seconds sales people are are being added across the world and that that addition we have done which will support beta 4 and um 52:11 52 minutes, 11 seconds vinpai uh growth. uh we expect Vinci and Vita 4 to be you know above break even 52:18 52 minutes, 18 seconds IDA in FI27 for sure um and uh this overall blends business to be northwards 52:25 52 minutes, 25 seconds of 1400 crores sure just one point this uh tariff refund that you have mentioned from the 52:32 52 minutes, 32 seconds US so whether that would be really tangible or it would be adjusted subsequent to trade 52:39 52 minutes, 39 seconds so that's what we understand is normally it becomes 50/50 So by historically it has been 50/50 but 52:46 52 minutes, 46 seconds the US government and uh the people there on the consultants are saying that we may get the cash up front but 52:54 52 minutes, 54 seconds historically if you see similar situation they have given 50% as cash and 50% has been adjusted against duty 53:02 53 minutes, 2 seconds but the kind of the turnover we have in from India vanlin itself that that uh 9 53:10 53 minutes, 10 seconds cr 10 crores we and they just swallow it in in couple of 3 4 months. So we are not worried about that. If they do give 53:18 53 minutes, 18 seconds cash we are more than happy. If they give duty refund still we are happy. 53:24 53 minutes, 24 seconds Okay. Sure. Yeah. Thank you sir. Wish you all the best. Thank you. 53:30 53 minutes, 30 seconds Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. At the time constraint we will take that as the last question for today. I now hand the conference back to the management for the closing comments. 53:41 53 minutes, 41 seconds Thank you and over to you sir. 53:43 53 minutes, 43 seconds Thank you. Thank you for your precious time ladies and gentlemen and we look forward to interacting with you in the next quarter. Thank you. 53:53 53 minutes, 53 seconds Thank you members of the management. On behalf of Camb Sciences Limited, we conclude this conference. Thank you all 54:00 54 minutes for joining with us today and you disconnect alliance. Thank you.